The Ready State Virtual Mobility Coach is like having a virtual Kelly Starrett in your pocket.
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Kelly: [0:00:04] Hey everyone, I’m Dr. Kelly Starrett.
Juliet: [0:00:06] And I’m Juliet Starrett.
Kelly: [0:00:08] And you’re listening to The Ready State Podcast.
Juliet: [00:00:16] This episode of The Ready State Podcast is brought to you by LMNT.
Kelly: [00:00:20] I was just traveling this weekend at a coach’s conference and hanging out with one of my favorite endurance coaches and one of the things we’re seeing is definitely a trend of people going long once or twice.
Juliet: [00:00:31] Yeah, especially because there’s been this renewed focus on doing a lot of Zone II cardio, especially for-
Kelly: [00:00:36] To balance high intensity exercise or as we get older. We need Zone II plus heavy. So one of the things that we’re seeing is people go long because they don’t have a feel for that. You don’t need to eat or drink anything to do a HIIT intensity exercise in your garage. But one of the things that we’ve learned from our superstar coaches is to try to not drink your calories. The goal is try to eat a food and then treat your hydration separately. And sometimes clearly, a lot of our friends like Rebecca have done, when you’re running the Leadville 100-
Juliet: [00:01:06] Yeah, of course there are exceptions where people are going to need to drink their calories.
Kelly: [00:01:08] It’s the only thing I can eat; I can’t eat. But on the bike particularly or hiking, if you can eat a calorie, that’s really what we’re seeing, Tour de France, on our best athletes. And LMNT solves this so beautifully because it’s very tasty. You can put LMNT in your bottle and know exactly how much salt you’re getting, how much water you’re getting, and simultaneously, you can put your calories on the other side of the bar or a sandwich or a whole food.
Juliet: [00:01:33] Yeah, and another big thing for me is that almost all the snacks that you take on long rides or long workouts are super sweet, all the goos and gels and bars and things that you can fit in your pocket. And so the last thing I want to do is also be drinking a really sweet drink along with all that-
Kelly: [00:01:50] It’s true.
Juliet: [00:01:50] Really sweet food. And so the LMNT is just such a nice balance and it actually really tastes good when you’re exercising.
Kelly: [00:01:56] And not only will make your water taste better, you’ll drink more, but it’s effective hydration. So give this a shot and see how you feel. And especially if you’re spending time in the sauna, you’ve got to do this. So look, we literally drink it every day. And right now, if you order through our link, you can get a free sample pack with all of the LMNT flavors. Go to drinklmnt.com/trs.
Juliet: [00:02:19] This episode of The Ready State Podcast is brought to you by Vitruvian.
Kelly: [00:02:22] One of the things that Vitruvian gives you is easy programming, easy weight training in your house. Very safe. But you can unlock some features that are easily built in.
Juliet: [00:02:33] Like what?
Kelly: [00:02:34] One of them I think is crucial. If you have an orthopedic problem or a range, you’re staying away from a range or protecting or a range you’re weak in, or simply you’re like, hey, at this place I start to compensate too much, you can set depths and positions so the machine actually won’t load those shapes.
Juliet: [00:02:52] So what you’re saying is if I squat down, if I get to a certain depth my feet duck out and my ankles collapse.
Kelly: [00:02:59] You keep going but it’s less effective.
Juliet: [00:03:00] I keep going but instead I can set it where I only squat to a depth where I stay in a good position.
Kelly: [00:03:07] Every time you start with an exercise, with a set, you will set the range that you want, and the machine remembers that. And one of the features of the Vitruvian which is very, very cool, is that you can do really heavy eccentric loading, which means I can put 600 pounds on my back basically and lower myself down and then it’ll just cut off. And so I can have these have these really freakish eccentric exposures but never end up in a position where I’m compromised or got to get into trouble because I can set that. It’s like pulling off of blocks or doing very sophisticated push training because you can just set the ranges. It’s pretty bananas.
Juliet: [00:03:44] It’s so awesome.
Kelly: [00:03:45] And you can do that in your garage, in your house.
Juliet: [00:03:47] Yeah. Or on your living room floor.
Kelly: [00:03:50] I’m a fan. For more information, go to thereadystate.com/Vitruvian.
Juliet: [00:03:54] On this episode of The Ready State Podcast, we are pleased to welcome Jared Hanley. Jared is a cofounder and CEO of NatureQuant, a research and technology firm building tools to access and promote nature exposure. Prior to founding NatureQuant, Jared used data science and statistical modeling techniques and provided advisory services in finance, energy, and real estate applications. He’s a published author and speaker on ERISA laws and plans. He has a BA in economics and a BA in cognitive science, both from Yale University. He’s a FINRA registered securities principal and a chartered financial analyst. I think what has stuck with me the most about our conversation with Jared is that the data shows that the average person is only spending, what was it, 120 minutes per week outside.
Kelly: [00:04:44] Per week. And I think what’s interesting particularly is when adults hear that information, they’re like, okay, yeah, yeah.
Juliet: [00:04:50] But not me. That’s not me. I’m different.
Kelly: [00:04:51] And then you’re like, well, hey, let’s talk about your kids, and it shows out that they’re probably spending the same amount of time outside. What he’s pointing out through his app and these ecosystems, number one, man, we’re not getting the outdoor exposure: sunlight, vitamin D, nature, fresh air. We’re all living in these manufactured environments. And then simultaneously, some of the environments we spend our time in are poor environments, concrete jungles.
Juliet: [00:05:20] Yeah, and then they’ve done this really cool thing with their technology where they’ve mapped out the entire United States and can tell whether you’re inside or outside and they have this really cool app that we’ve all downloaded onto our phones now called NatureDose where you can actually really begin to track and understand whether you’re getting any real quality time outside. It’s super interesting.
Kelly: [00:05:41] I’m glad he brought it back up, the Japanese government has the Ministry of Forest Bathing, which is the technical term about, hey, are you actually spending time in nature. At risk of always saying, we’re pining for our paleolithic selves and we’re sleeping outside and eating outside. There’s got to be a push and pull that we evolved for two and a half million years in outdoor environments and suddenly we’re not in those and there’s clearly a cost on our health. So I think this conversation is really interesting, even just the fact that you’re sort of aware of it puts it on your radar. Easy things to solve. Hey, I just need to go outside and be around trees.
Juliet: [00:06:17] Yeah, so there’s a ton to learn and check it out. I think it was a really great conversation.
Juliet: [00:06:22] What’s up, Jared? Welcome to The Ready State Podcast.
Jared Hanley [00:06:25] Yeah, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
Juliet: [00:06:27] We are really excited. So before we get into some details about all things NatureQuant and your life currently, am I correct that you had a phase of being an adventure racer and do we know people in common? Do I have that right?
Kelly: [00:06:41] This is where we need to start first.
Jared Hanley [00:06:43] That is quite true. I was completely obsessed with adventure racing for over a decade of my life and got to a pretty high level. I raced for some sponsored teams and competed on a world stage. I definitely love being outside and that’s a testament to that.
Kelly: [00:06:58] Well, that’s really nice about adventure racing. If you don’t know this everyone, basically you go five to seven days, sometimes only three days, without sleeping. You go as far as you can, as many disciplines as you can, it’s suffering as much as you can.
Juliet: [00:07:08] Yeah, and usually you have leeches on your body during some part of that. Definitely there’s leeches-
Kelly: [00:07:11] Or you get Dengue or you poop worms. It’s a gentlemanly sport for everyone.
Juliet: [00:07:17] So were you adventure racing in the era of Rebecca Rusch and Shane Segal [00:07:22], our dear friends, both of whom-
Jared Hanley [00:07:24] Yeah. I competed against both of them. Can’t say that I ever beat them but I was on the same starting line.
Juliet: [00:07:30] Well, they’re both mutants. And also, I will say on our part, Kelly and I are adventure racing fans. I mean Kelly actually did support for some adventure racing in Northern California way back in the day.
Kelly: [00:07:40] For Rebecca.
Juliet: [00:07:40] For Rebecca and Shane.
Kelly: [00:07:41] And that was when I decided it was not for me. What was your favorite section of an adventure race because I think I remember crewing for a race where they had to paddle 20 miles in a ducky on a lake in the dark. And I was like I’m not sure this is a sport I ever want to get into.
Jared Hanley [00:07:58] We had a race with a thing, it’s on the Gallatin River outside of Bozeman, where there was this sport called riverboarding that had a moment where you literally lay on a little pool toy and go down rapids with just kick fins on. And when you’re at water level, every wave seems enormous. And that happened to be an almost flood stage day. And so that was unbelievably exciting. Scary, really.
Juliet: [00:08:21] So little known fact, it is a completely weird and fringe sport, riverboarding, and coincidentally, our 15-year-old daughter, Caroline, is obsessed with riverboarding and every time we go on river trips, we are all in other crafts and she is on a riverboard. We own a riverboard, isn’t that funny?
Jared Hanley [00:08:38] That’s amazing. I didn’t even know they still sold them.
Juliet: [00:08:41] Yeah. I think Lisa’s going to have to put a link to what they are on the show notes because it’s really, I mean talk about a fringe sport. It’s like three people on Earth actually do that.
Kelly: [00:08:50] We are talking to you today, we met through a mutual friend who put on our radar this epidemic of societal proportions where we’re seeing what we think is a type one error in humans that we aren’t going outside. Can you tell us how you became mini obsessed with this and set the stage for us about bringing this important idea to people so they can begin to change this fundamental behavior?
Juliet: [00:09:22] Yeah, and hopefully part of that is your evolution story of adventure racer turned what you’re doing now.
Jared Hanley [00:09:28] Yeah. Well, let me start with the societal commentary, just to get on a soapbox, and then I’ll talk about me personally and then the company, NatureQuant. So I would completely reiterate the point that we are all living in a very odd way, especially when you think about humans from an evolutionary perspective. Life has evolved on Earth for four billion years: mammals, a couple hundred million years, and then all of a sudden, this one strange species, humans, in just really the last 50 years, has started living in these built environments, in these boxes that we’re creating. So it’s just so new and so different. It’s just a shock to the system, our physiology and our psychology. And we’re now discovering that this new lifestyle, inside, in cities, in front of screens 12 hours a day is really bad for us in many ways. And so I don’t think that people recognize that shift and that problem and I’m trying to raise awareness around that and we’re studying it pretty extensively and figuring out that this new lifestyle is just unhealthy and it needs to be balanced in many ways. And so that’s what’s happening from a societal level. I saw that personally. Like many of us, I grew up as a kid outside playing, just enjoying the wilderness. And then I had a professional career that got me in the office, got me in front of screens, and I lost my connection to the outdoor world. But I always found that going outside on these adventure races or bike rides or skiing or whatever was an amazing reset physically, and more than that, mentally. This was like a palate cleanse for the mind. I wasn’t unique in that and being a curious person, I looked up why do I feel so much better working out outside than I do in the gym, and it turns out there’s a whole body of scientific literature around that going way back to the 70s and 80s, really. And we now can state pretty confidently that being outdoors has unique impacts on our mental and physical health. And most people aren’t capturing those benefits adequately because they’re just inside too much or in gyms.
Kelly: [00:11:31] What you described, I think everyone would subjectively agree with that statement. I take this animal wild cat… I think about cats who are just only indoors all the time, I’m like animals probably need some sun and if I extend that to myself, I probably need some sunlight on my body. But you’re hinting at that there’s a body of science supporting that. And will you elaborate a little bit on that? Because I think subjectively, we’re like yeah, yeah, we all need to go outside, but that’s not realistic.
Juliet: [00:12:00] Just if I could add to that, I mean we know that there’s a ton of research and data coming out, both from a physiologic perspective and a mental health perspective and I think if you combine those two things together, a longevity perspective.
Kelly: [00:12:12] We’re not doing great.
Juliet: [00:12:12] We’re not doing great and I think the benefits of being outside are massive. There’s a lot of data but if you could maybe tell us a little bit about some of the highlights of what people are working on.
Kelly: [00:12:22] Move us out of this objective feeling. I feel better when I’m outside but-
Jared Hanley [00:12:25] Let’s geek out on it because that’s actually core to what we’re doing. I think that’s the best way to describe it is do this thought experiment. So if we take two people, we send one person to a park or a forest and have the other person go to an urban environment, so they’re sitting in downtown Manhattan, we monitor various biomarkers. We’ll see pretty distinct differences between those two individuals. And we see this consistently. So the person that went to a biodiverse natural environment is going to have a stronger immune system. So their natural killer cell count, which is like a white blood cell that attacks viruses and bacterias, after being exposed to a natural biodiverse environment, there is a response. That natural killer cell count goes way up. their immune system is triggered by that diversity and actually becomes stronger. So that’s a big piece right there, just having a better immune system by being outside in this diverse environment. We’ll also consistently see lower resting heart rate, lower blood pressure, lower cortisol level, and improved HRV or heartrate variability for the person in the natural setting.
Kelly: [00:13:31] And all those are metrics of a more robust person, a healthier person?
Jared Hanley [00:13:36] Well, it’s a less stressed person. I mean there is this idea that when we’re in a techno stress built environment, there’s this subconscious alarm going off all the time. We’re hearing sirens, there’s these lights, there’s all of these weird build elements, we’re not seeing natural resources, and so there’s this subconscious stress. Being in a city or being just around a built environment consistently is triggering, but when you get into a natural environment your body calms down. And we can see this pretty consistently and pretty rapidly, actually. Just going and sitting in the sunlight staring at the trees for a moment just allows us to calm down. And we see that in all these biomarker measurements. Also, your mood is going to improve when you’re outside. We see that consistently. Especially when you’re outside a city. Very likely, you’re going to sleep better that night, especially if you get sunlight in your eyes that morning. It resets your circadian rhythm by being outside. Most of us are vitamin deficient; obviously, getting sunlight is going to help there. And then cognitively, we see that people that spend time in that natural space versus the city have better memory, better attention span, they’re more creative. So there’s all these things that have been measured in these interventional studies and then bigger observational studies showing that we’re just better humans when we’re outside in these biodiverse environments with some regularity.
Juliet: [00:14:54] I wanted to tell you a quick story that I was reminded of when you mentioned going from being an adventure racer to an office worker. I was a river guide for many years in my 20s and then went to law school, and when I was applying for jobs, multiple people in interviews actually asked me if I was going to be able to work indoors, which I’ve always thought of since because of course my answer was, yes, I can work indoors, do I always want to be working indoors? Not necessarily. And then go figure, Kelly and I opened an outdoor gym. And we had a gym in a parking lot for many years. we’ve always biased towards trying to be outside. But what I wanted to ask specifically on the biomarker side, Kelly mentioned this after you guys had had a prior conversation, and there’s some data coming in about kids in particular, which is something that I’m always particularly curious about.
Kelly: [00:15:42] We want to get there because I think adults listen to this and they think to themselves they never apply this thinking to their children.
Juliet: [00:15:49] And I think if Kelly reported the data to me correctly, people will be shocked to hear what it is in terms of kids spending time outside. I don’t know. If you could just tell us what are we learning about kids, how’s the population different from adults, and is there independent data from a mental health or physiologic standpoint that’s showing the impact of this lack of spending time outside on kids.
Jared Hanley [00:16:10] I’m glad you brought that up. We do actually have a couple identical trials underway with teens. We don’t have any data on kids under 10. But for teens in particular, we’re finding a few things. One is kids that get outside with more regularity sleep better. And we know this because they have wearables on sometimes. You know, Smartwatches or even Oura Rings in some of our studies. And that’s a big deal because frankly, a lot of kids are just not getting enough sleep. And being outside seems to, again, reset their circadian rhythm and allow them to be tired at night and sleep better. And the other is mental health. Obviously, there’s a mental health epidemic going on among our youth. There’s not enough therapists or treatment out there. It seems that getting people outside alone does improve mood. And so we actually have some therapists prescribing time outside and monitoring the impacts of that and comparing it to obviously other drugs. And time outside seems to be just as impactful. So simply to improve mood for kids, one great way to do that is to get them outside. And we don’t know if it’s exactly the nature or the fact that they’re more active or maybe they’re more social when they’re outside typically than inside on their own looking at a screen. Whatever the mechanism of action is, we certainly see that when you get people outside, they’re just simply happier. And that’s true for teens as it is for adults.
Juliet: [00:17:30] What is the data on how much this teen group is actually spending outside?
Kelly: [00:17:35] Yeah, give us some reference values. Are we talking about my kids are spending two hours outside, they need to spend three hours outside?
Jared Hanley [00:17:42] Yeah. So our technology is the first platform ever to be able to aggregate time outside at scale. Historically, it’s been survey data which is kind of mixed in value. And I can tell you, people are not spending a lot of time outside. The average for our entire population is about 130 minutes a week. So a little over two hours a week. Among teens-
Kelly: [00:18:03] In your entire population, the average person is spending 130 minutes outside a week.
Jared Hanley [00:18:09] Correct. Very little time outside. That’s part of the societal problem that we’re facing here. And bear in mind, this includes winter, and in the northern part of our country, it’s cold. And time in a vehicle does not count for us as time outside. But essentially, people are spending 96, 97 percent of their lives indoors or in vehicles.
Juliet: [00:18:30] And what about kids? Is the data similar for kids in terms of time spent outside or are they spending more or less?
Jared Hanley [00:18:38] You know, I couldn’t say definitively. We’ll know more in about a year. I think it’s probably quite similar.
Kelly: [00:18:45] So besides the adoption of wholescale convertibles across society, which is obviously what we’re going to have to do.
Juliet: [00:18:53] Great solution, baby, great solution.
Kelly: [00:18:55] Can you tell us how you know this? Tell us how you became interested in this and how you’ve begun to quantity and track it and what that technology looks like because I think suddenly, we’re all very interested in saying is that true for me and how would I know.
Jared Hanley [00:19:13] I mean first I saw the problem I think as many others did. And I came across the research because I was experiencing it personally and wanted to understand from a scientific standpoint what is happening to me, why do I feel so much better when I’m outside. And then I thought about what is the solution. There was a couple things happening at that time. Bitcoin was all the rage. And people were focused on just tracking things numerically. You essentially create a unique number or create a number of any kind and society focuses on it. And one thing that time outside lacked was a number. People were not quantifying it. You’re tracking your steps, maybe you’re tracking your sleep, you’re tracking your calories, your reps, whatever it is. No one was thinking about how much time they spend in different environments. So I wanted to build the technology to put a number on nature or nature exposure, A. And B, put that in a cellphone platform because most people are looking at their phones eight hours a day, so that’s where you were going to get the retention. So ultimately, that all coalesced into NatureDose, which is our mobile app, which tracks your time outside.
Juliet: [00:20:16] What I think is so cool about this is pretty much everybody has a phone or some kind of device and they pretty much have it with them all the time. Kelly and I like to point this out because we’re obsessed with getting people to walk and move more. It’s very connected to being outside because usually you’re doing it outside. And that’s one of the reasons we’re fans of walking. We remind people that as long as you have access to your phone, you have a tracker. It may not be exactly perfect in terms of tracking your steps, but you can certainly get a general rough idea of how much you’re moving in the day. And I just think it’s so cool that without doing anything other than just having downloaded this on your phone, you can get some really good individual data on how much time you’re spending outside. And man, if that data about the average person spending 130 minutes outside a week is correct, I think people will probably be pretty shocked to learn. Are you finding that people using this are changing their behavior because obviously that is the ultimate goal. Is the knowledge that when people learn that they’re just plain not spending enough time outside, are they changing their behavior? And what tools do you have to support that?
Jared Hanley [00:21:21] Well, two thoughts there. The first thing is we intentionally built this app to be passive. We didn’t want to be part of the attention economy where you’re starting and stopping and logging all your activity. There are plenty of activity trackers out there that can log your runs or your bike rides. We wanted this to be something that works in the background, feeds that important data to you, but doesn’t suck you into your phone all the time. And because of that, it’s a balance in terms of the really powerful interventional tool. So I think for people that are aware of how important this is and motivated to improve their health, they use it a lot. But it’s not gameified in the way that you’re getting a badge and a reward and you’re getting likes on social media for your NatureDose time. And I do think once we build some of those other features in, maybe it’ll be a more powerful intervention for good and bad. But right now, it’s the data tool for those who recognize the importance of changing their environment, getting outside with some occasion, getting off screens with some kind of regular interval.
Juliet: [00:22:22] So I know there’s a lot of additional data, if we could still keep nerding out on the data because I know we’ve talked a bit about the mental health side and mood. And I think you alluded to this a little bit but I know and I’ve read there’s some pretty interesting data about disease, separate and apart from immune system, which you discussed. Can you talk to us a little bit about what we’re seeing in the data there from the connection from being outside and avoiding disease or generally being healthy?
Jared Hanley [00:22:50] Yeah, so now we’re looking at longitudinal studies. So we have a whole other side of our business, it’s called NatureScore, which is actually looking at the quality of environments as they pertain to built and natural elements. So we’ve mapped every piece of nature in the US down to every 10 meters. Every tree, every park, body of water. We have every building footprint, every highway. And so if we know what the environment looks like and we know where people live and where they work, we can look back over the last 50 to 70 years and see what kind of environment were people in and who got cancer, who got heart disease, and who basically lived longer. And we’ve done that at scale with several large cohorts of people. I think in aggregate it’s about 70,000 people in the US going back 50 years. And we can say with confidence that being in a nature rich environment reduces cancer, reduces heart disease, reduces obesity, reduces asthma, reduces mental stress. And you just frankly live longer. The catchall is there’s a reduction in all cause mortality if you’re in an environment that has adequate nature.
Juliet: [00:23:57] And again, I know you mentioned this earlier, do you think the mechanism is just plain being outside, or is it because we tend to be moving and playing, we tend to be doing physical activity more often when we’re outside? And then like everything, once you start doing things, it spins on its own.
Kelly: [00:24:13] Are you defending your tree huggerness?
Juliet: [00:24:17] Well, deep down, deep down.
Jared Hanley [00:24:18] So there’s a lot of theories out there. I can’t say with any confidence what is exactly happening. But I can give you some of the theories. So the first is this old friends theory. When you’re in this biodiverse environment, you’re actually breathing in, they’re called phytoncides or organic compounds of all these plants and animals, mushroom spores, et cetera. And you’re not even aware of that. But you’re exposing your chemical being to this diverse environment, which we evolved in. And so when you take your body away from that and you’re in this sterile, indoor environment, all of a sudden, there’s some kid of imbalance in our microbiome or our chemical system. So that’s the old friends theory. And as I mentioned before, your immune system actually gets weaker when you’re not in a biodiverse environment. So having a weak immune system may lead to reduction of longevity. So that’s one theory. Another theory is that nature is good for us, yes, but actually what is happening is cities are really bad for us. The air pollution’s worse, you’re stressed out all the time, you’re maybe not sleeping as well. So people that are in these dense, urban environments just happen to live in less healthy environments. It’s not so much that’s nature’s a benefit, it’s that cities causing harm. And the third is, and we try and account for this—these are called covariances—usually in these nature rich neighborhoods, nature poor neighborhoods, there’s all of these other social and environmental factors that can have an impact on your health. And as much as we try and parse those apart, it just happens that these environments that are city environments maybe have poorer food quality, people are less active, there are just elements at play that we just can’t even understand. Humans are complex, the environment’s complex. So I can’t say A is causing B. All I can say is the association is profound and it’s consistent. Being in a nature diverse environment is really associated, very tightly associated, with just being healthier and living longer.
Juliet: [00:26:13] What I imagine some listeners would be wondering is what do we do because a lot of people listening to this live in dense urban environments. It actually seems like as a species we’re actually going to continue towards more people living in denser urban environments versus people living out in rural or even suburban environments. We recently actually just had Dan Buettner on our podcast who is the Blue Zones guy and he’s doing this really interesting work on a population level with communities in particular through the Blue Zones projects to try to make these small changes to the environment that are making these very measured and big changes to people’s overall health. And one of those things that he mentioned is just simply anytime there’s a roadwork done in a Blue Zone community, they have to add sidewalks and trees, some basic things like that. So what is the solution here, assuming as a human species, most of us are probably going to continue living in urban environments and raise our kids in urban environments? I think based on where you are in Oregon and where Kelly and I are north of San Francisco, I think we have unlimited access to nature and outdoors probably outside our backdoors, but that’s not a reality for most people. So how do we solve this given our modern way of living in urban environments?
Jared Hanley [00:27:31] It’s a super hard problem. But I do have some ideas and they’re kind of twofold. So the first is basically creating healthier environments. And one thing, as I mentioned these NatureScore maps, we actually now know where the nature deficient communities are. And we’ve built essentially by neighborhood level scores for nature richness. And so we can quickly screen for these areas where people are living and they don’t have adequate access to nature. So the tree canopy’s low, there’s no parks nearby. And then we can direct funding into those neighborhoods to plant more trees, build more parks. And actually, just two weeks ago, there was a billion and a half dollars in funding through the Inflation Reduction Act for urban greening. And they’re going to use data like ours and others to identify those nature deficient communities and make sure that those people living in those areas have access to nature. It’s not an easy task and it’s very expensive but that’s phase one, is building healthier cities.
Juliet: [00:28:25] Really quickly, just on that phase one, before you tell me about phase two, is that effective? For people listening to this that live in a city, Kelly and I lived in San Francisco for a long time, but we were lucky enough for most of that time to live within a block of Golden Gate Park. It was a huge urban park but we still had access to parks and beaches. Is that enough if people, even if they’re in an urban area but they have access to things like parks, is that enough?
Jared Hanley [00:28:50] That’s my phase two. So actually, what we’re finding is there’s plenty of people that live near nature but they don’t go outside. So you may have a beautiful park down the street, but you’re never going there. Obviously as we discussed, people are spending more than 95 percent of their life indoors. So the phase two is really raising awareness around the importance of exposing yourself to these other environments, getting outside, getting sunlight in your eyes, getting around a biodiverse environment, getting off screens. And that’s where we feel our mobile app can come in and make a difference by gamifying and quantifying time outside. You have to measure what matters so you can motivate people to get outside. I mean our vision is to have the fourth ring of the Apple watch be NatureDose, have every health and wellness platform include time outside as one of all those data points that people are thinking about because we feel it’s that impactful.
Juliet: [00:29:41] Hey Ready State listeners, if you like what you’re hearing, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes to help others find our show.
Juliet: [00:29:49] This episode of The Ready State Podcast is brought to you by Momentous.
Kelly: [00:29:52] One of the things that is a staple in my diet from Momentous is collagen. And I think there are better and worse ways to use collagen. We’re just talking about gut health, we’re just talking about this is probably something human beings have been eating for a long time. Greg Cook pointed out a long time ago, he’s like what do you think humans’ first food was after breast milk?
Juliet: [00:30:13] Bones.
Kelly: [00:30:14] But soaked in a stew, right? So it was probably some kind of bone broth right away. One of the things that I think people can grok is, hey, these things are part of human diets and they have been for a long time. We can see the application of using collagen, particularly when people have a hot tendinopathy or we’re loading something and we know we’re going to see a lot of upregulation of collagen synthesis like in an Achilles. And so I think if you’re battling a tendinopathy problem, you’ve got a hotspot, take your collagen 30 minutes earlier.
Juliet: [00:30:45] Thirty minutes before exercise?
Kelly: [00:30:47] Before exercise.
Juliet: [00:30:47] Is that what you mean 30 minutes earlier?
Kelly: [00:30:48] Yeah. So if you’re doing a bunch of exercises because you’ve got a hot elbow or hot Achilles, take that collagen 30 minutes before you plan loading it. Then if your body is calling for it, then it’s going to be there. And I think that’s the way we should be thinking about targeted collagen supplementation.
Juliet: [00:31:04] Is that why every time I go out to the garage I find little collagen shots?
Kelly: [00:31:07] Hey, you promised-
Juliet: [00:31:08] Empty.
Kelly: [00:31:09] Not to bring this up.
Juliet: [00:31:10] Around the skier and the bikes? Is that because you’re employing this strategy yourself?
Kelly: [00:31:16] You’re not wrong. There’s like a detritus, a strand line of collagen.
Juliet: [00:31:17] I can see what work out you’ve done based on where your collagen shot is.
Kelly: [00:31:23] Oh, thanks babe. And I want everyone to know that Juliet literally and figuratively hides them in my stuff as payback. You’re like, “Hey, hon, do you want to-
Juliet: [00:31:32] Including on your pillow.
Kelly: [00:31:32] That’s right. It’s in there. Look, if you want to learn more about Momentous collagen, go to livemomentous.com/trs and use code TRS for 20 percent off your first purchase.
Juliet: [00:31:45] This episode of The Ready State Podcast is brought to you by YET. And what we want to talk to you about today is our love affair with the Yonder bottle.
Kelly: [00:31:53] Stop. You talk about your Yonder more than you talk about your daughter at college.
Juliet: [00:31:57] What are you even talking about? That’s not true.
Kelly: [00:32:01] I mean it’s leak proof. You can put hot things in here, you can put cold things in here. And more importantly, should you even use protein, it rinses right out.
Juliet: [00:32:09] Well, and here’s the thing: I am a huge fan of all Yeti stuff, including all of their insulated cups and bottles. But man, I find myself in a lot of situations where weight matters. Traveling, camping.
Kelly: [00:32:20] Dude, the story of my life. I carry around these thunder thighs, and my bottle’s got to be-
Juliet: [00:32:24] Well yeah. you don’t need to carry those thighs and a heavy insulated bottle if you get on the plane.
Kelly: [00:32:24] We were traveling this weekend for some work. And I was like I’m going to the East Coast, I’ll have some hot drinks. So I brought an insulated bottle and I snuck into the airport with a full bottle of water.
Juliet: [00:32:38] Because you forgot because you couldn’t see how much water you had.
Kelly: [00:32:39] I forgot Yes. I had to literally chug the water. There was no place to dump it out. I was chugging it, it was going down my face. And people were behind me like, sir, can you hurry up that chug? If I had a Yonder, no problem.
Juliet: [00:32:48] Yeah. And Georgia recently just lost one of her insulated bottles at an airport because she didn’t realize she had water in it, which wouldn’t have happened if she had a YONDER.
Kelly: [00:32:56] The YONDER. And the other thing that I really have had happen to me is I’ve had bottles leak and the YONDER does not leak.
Juliet: [00:33:03] Rest assured that you can put this thing in your backpack or your bag with your laptop and all your other tech, and you know that your stuff is going to be-
Kelly: [00:33:10] Have you ever had that time when you had a backpack full of Fabergé eggs and you’re like what bottle am I going to put over here because I’m afraid it’s going to leak? Not the YONDER. You don’t have to worry about that.
Juliet: [00:33:19] That’s never been a thought I’ve had, but thank you.
Kelly: [00:33:22] It could happen. Look, if you want to learn more or get your own YONDER, go to thereadystate.com/yeti.
Kelly: [00:33:31] If people are spending, my math isn’t good but it’s like 25 minutes a day I think, seven times twenty-five kind of gets me there, it’s not a lot of time. Is there a minimum effective dose? I want to be careful I don’t end up saying how many minutes do I have to go outside to be minimally healthy? That’s not the goal. Juliet and I have been doing this thing for as long as I’ve known Juliet called the one-man attack on the sun where I literally just expose as much of my skin to the sun as I can and then the sun gets tired, it goes down, and I remain. That’s really the short of it, everyone. But should I just always be thinking, hey, if I have an opportunity to go outside, if there’s no… We go in the summer and we’ll spend a week sleeping under the stars and being outside and even just watching our kids do a sport do a sport that it happens in outdoor pools here in California, we’re so lucky. I mean I just think about all the parents who are forced to be outside and watch their kids play soccer and softball. You could be saving their lives with that sport. But is there a minimum effective dose where we see those changes happen?
Jared Hanley [00:34:39] We’re studying that now pretty extensively with our mobile app and our clinical trials. We’re actually about to launch a huge study via our funding from the European Commission throughout a bunch of regions in Europe to study this further. But I can tell you the scientific consensus right now is 120 minutes per week in nature. So that’s not just outside. So environmental quality matters. Again, like I said, if you’re sitting in a busy urban environment, you may not be getting a lot of the benefits because you’re still stressed out, even subconsciously. So if you can get 120 minutes in a nature diverse environment like a park or a river, that’s a minimum dose that you should shoot for. There was a big survey done in the UK about time outside and help and that landed right at about 120 minutes a week. So two hours a week I think is a good starting point. The second point I’ll make is you want to have at least 20-minute sessions. So just walking from your house to your car or whatever in a five-minute session doesn’t seem to have the same impact as a designated 20-minute block of time outside. When we follow stuff like cortisol level, which is a stress hormone, or amygdala activity, which is mental stress, we see both of those things improve after that 15 to 20 session. So I would say two hours a week is a good starting point and 20-minute blocks.
Juliet: [00:35:55] Again, I’m back to the walking tip, which we are always talking about because we’re obsessed with walking. But one of the things we’ve noticed is people who live in urban areas are often surprised to learn how little people move in suburban and more rural areas. Often the New Yorkers are like I easily walk 10,000 steps a day without even thinking about it because it’s part of their lifestyle. But are you saying if you’re getting 10,000 steps, which means you’re getting a fair amount of time outside, but all that time is done in between high-rise buildings, maybe surrounded by a lot of automobile pollution and maybe not access to the sun directly because there’s high buildings, are you saying that time wouldn’t be as valuable as the person going and sitting in Central Park for 25 minutes or something like that?
Jared Hanley [00:36:42] I can say the historical intervention studies show that that’s less impactful, walking in a city. And then in our clinical trials, we’re seeing the same. So walking in a park is superior to walking in a city. Both are exercise, but you’re just not getting the same ancillary benefits of the environmental impact.
Kelly: [00:37:02] Sometimes moving is better than not moving. One of our coaches, Travis and I, have been texting back and forth all these ridiculous 20 minute electrical, mechanical, you put a suit on and you can get all the benefits of exercise. And it shocks your muscles and your BFR and it’s cold. And we’re like I think you may be missing the point. The goal isn’t to truncate this down to a vitamin. The goal is not just to move more. The goal is to see if we can max out the quality of the things we’re doing. We just had a friend who we were talking to at a game. Her son was swimming at college and he started swimming indoors and it really changed his worldview a little bit. He was still doing all the movement, he was still active, but all of a sudden, he really felt differently. And he was moving to a different environment. But I think that we don’t think of it necessarily that way. What it made me think of was when Caroline was born, she spent three weeks in the NICU, and when they discharged us, they were like you’ve got to give your-
Juliet: [00:38:06] You know this story is triggering for some people.
Kelly: [00:38:09] They were like you’ve got to give your kid these vitamins. And I was like, no I don’t. And they were like, no, you have to give your kid these vitamins. And I was like, look me in the eye and tell me that mother’s milk isn’t perfect food. And they were like, agh. And I was like, tell me. And they were like, we can’t. And I was like, what’s the problem? And they said well, mothers in the city aren’t going outside and they aren’t creating vitamin D. And vitamin D is estrogenic, it comes out through the breast milk. And it turns out kids weren’t getting vitamin D because they had no sun exposure and their parents had no sun exposure. So the solution was to hand these fake vitamins out to give to newborns. And I was like, this is crazy.
Jared Hanley [00:38:46] It’s funny you mentioned that. I actually use the analogy often that when you’re inside, you’re basically eating a processed environment; it’s all processed food. That’s kind of the equivalent. But when you go outside, you’re eating a salad. It’s all natural. It’s crazy to think about 95 percent of our environment that we consume is processed because you wouldn’t want to eat 95 percent processed food. But that’s kind of what we’re doing. And while you don’t think about your environment as having the same impact as food, and maybe it doesn’t, to some extent it does have real impacts on your mental health and physical health. And so you just don’t want to be in a processed environment all the time.
Juliet: [00:39:24] What we’re talking about here is this environment human mismatch and I’m sure you know Kelly and I tried to tackle this problem in our own way starting 10 or 15 years ago because what we saw in our physical therapy clinic was the environment human mismatch of people sitting all the time and then in many cases, sitting for 12 hours and then trying to run a marathon and wondering why their Achilles tore or whatever. But it seems to me that’s really what we’re seeing on a societal level is this environment human mismatch. We are doing all these things but we haven’t actually evolved to thrive in these new environments because it really is so new.
Jared Hanley [00:40:00] Exceptionally new, especially from an evolutionary perspective. Really since the industrial revolution are people just living in cities, let alone now in cities inside all the time. It’s just a huge social experiment and we don’t really know what the outcome’s going to be. But the more we study, the more we realize that these new environments we’re building for ourselves and our new behaviors, indoors sitting in front of screens, are just really detrimental. And so we’re a technology company, obviously, and so we’re not anti-tech, we’re not anti any of that, but we just need to find a better balance, and I don’t think society’s recognized a need for that balance.
Kelly: [00:40:35] You have this app, you’re starting to get traction in the background, thinking about industrial design and where governments are putting their money. Those are big sticks. The first question is, is this a big sell for people. Is it difficult for you to make the case in these urban environments or at these population level? Do people understand what you all are quantifying? And that’s really the magic, is what you’re quantifying. Is it a difficult sell or is it an easy swim?
Jared Hanley [00:41:05] It’s a difficult sell because this is a long-term preventative behavior or preventative measure for a society. I mean you plant a tree, it’s going to take 30 years before that thing’s mature and providing shade and all the lovely things that it does. Going outside for one day is not going to eliminate your cancer risk and cause you to lose weight. So this is a long term wellness and preventative measure strategy where people are dealing with fires; they’re dealing with emergencies all the time. And so talking about the future, building better cities for our great grandkids or getting someone to go for a walk when they have 10 emails they have to respond to is tough. It’s a tough sell.
Juliet: [00:41:45] So I know we talked a little bit about this with the city versus rural environment but just to sort of drive the point home, what actually counts as nature?
Jared Hanley [00:41:55] So I can tell you how we define it because that’s a great question. We aggregated as I said, 35 different remote sensing data sets and technology. So think about high res satellite imagery with a computer vision layer that tells us here’s a bush, here’s a tree, here’s a lawn, here’s a building footprint, a highway. And then we have all of this historical health record data, who lived where, and who got what diseases. And we ran a machine learning process between those two things to tell us which elements of nature are most impactful on health. So the goal for our machine learning process was longevity. What kind of natural environment bestowed the longest, healthiest lives for the populations that we’re training it against? And so our definition of nature and our models for both our maps and our mobile app is nature that bestows health benefits. And so we see a pretty distinct difference. Standing in the middle of the desert versus a forest are two different environments. They’re both nature. I don’t think anyone would argue with that. But you don’t see the same health impacts when you’re not in a biodiverse environment. Also, we’re finding that live biomass, so greenness, seems to be more impactful, than a scree field of rocks. Water seems to have great impact on mental health but it doesn’t have the same reduction in cancer rates. So there’s all these nuances. Being around Douglas Fir trees might help improve air quality and reduce asthma. But it’s shady and dark and so maybe you’re less inclined to go for a walk. So it’s a complicated definition for us but it’s really what nature in our models correlates most tightly with improved health.
Kelly: [00:43:35] You’ve been at this for a second, you’re starting to gather this essential baseline, like the 120 minutes a week as a baseline is a freak baseline. What has most surprised you? Because let me just say that your bias, your intrinsic hidden bias from yourselves is that I feel better when I’m outside and that’s probably good for us.
Juliet: [00:43:58] Yeah, I mean it does make intuitive sense.
Kelly: [00:44:01] What has surprised you about your scientific process in terms of really getting to the bottom of this a little bit or exploring what is nature or exploring what the benefits are when we actually are not living in manufactured homes?
Jared Hanley [00:44:17] Well, I was shocked at how little time we’re seeing people outside. I love the outdoors so I tend to associate with people who also like being outside and appreciate it. But when you look at a population level, I was surprised at how little time people are spending outside. But from the research perspective, the two things that just jumped off the chart was we had one study, a cohort of college students, and the more time they spent outside, the happier they were. It was just A to B, which was really exciting to see and confirmed a lot of our theories. And the second is pairing outside time with sleep quality data. Those things we see instantaneously and the association is very, very strong. And so it’s great to see those numbers jump off the page, if you will. The longer term stuff about reducing diseases, cancer rates, heart disease, I’m excited about, but we really don’t have any confirmation yet. we really won’t for quite a while. But the things that jump off the page are, again, shocking how little time people are spending outside and exciting to see how a little change in behavior just spending a few more minutes outside each week can have a great impact on mental health and sleep.
Kelly: [00:45:23] This is a terrible business. The worst business I can think of is trying to get people to stretch. The second is how are you going to sell nature to people? How do we package this to actually… You know what I mean? You haven’t purchased your nature today. What a terrible business model. What are you even thinking? How are you going to rich?
Jared Hanley [00:45:41] We’re probably not, frankly. But maybe. I will say this: The reception we get is amazingly positive. Everyone is really, really excited about what we’re doing. We’re creating novel data that just didn’t exist historically and it’s turning out to be really important data. There’s a lot of organizations that want to get behind this, both outdoor brands, there’s a bunch of nonprofits that use our work, municipalities, the federal government is looking at this data. Time outside becomes an integral part of healthcare. And we are showing that just by going outside, healthcare costs are reduced. Actually, we have one study showing that when you’re outside, you cost your insurance $400 less per year. So once your insurance company recognizes that, oh wait, I can just tell people to go outside and I don’t have as much expense for that individual, it’s a great ROI for me, that’ll happen. And then I also think in foreign countries where there’s a single payer system, where they actually are trying to reduce healthcare costs, because they’re trying to save money for the state, they’ll realize, oh, we need this kind of behavioral intervention because it’s just the best investment for reducing healthcare expense. So I think ultimately there are these big pools that we will play a big role in. It’s just a long educational curve.
Juliet: [00:46:56] It’s the long game. I was particularly excited to see the study about college age kids because we just dropped our kid off at college. And we were actually really pleased to see when we dropped her off that her dorm is at least a 15-minute walk to any of her classes outside, even in the cold Michigan winter.
Kelly: [00:47:15] And she lives across from the cemetery and the arboretum.
Juliet: [00:47:18] And yeah, the arboretum. So in order to actually do the things that she’s there to do, which is go to class, she has to spend quite a bit of time outside and will have to do that even when it’s as cold as we Californians have ever known it to be.
Kelly: [00:47:34] Go Blue.
Juliet: [00:47:35] And so I saw that study on your website and I thought that was cool, just on a personal level.
Jared Hanley [00:47:40] Well, it’s like a natural sauna session or cold plunge. They’ve got to walk in the hot and cold.
Kelly: [00:47:48] I’m always served that why Scandinavian families keep their babies outside in the winter. What you’re actually describing sounds very Scandinavian where I feel sad or depressed and someone prescribes me walks. This is really progressive thinking.
Juliet: [00:48:05] That does lead me to a question though. I know that you’ve done all this serious mapping in the United States. Have you guys gone outside? Is this going to be a worldwide data collection and study? And if you are already doing that, what’s the difference between what we’re seeing here and in other countries?
Jared Hanley [00:48:24] We just got a huge grant from the European Commission to map all of Europe and we’ll be doing a large-scale study with our mobile app in Europe. That won’t launch until 2025. But it’s interesting, a lot of other countries are way more down this path than we are in the United States, where nature is just commonly seen as an important component to lifestyle and health. So obviously, Japan has this concept of forest bathing, which you may have heard. They’ve been doing forest bathing since the 80s. They actually have a federal office of Shinrin-yoku so there’s part of the government’s sole mission is to get people outside. So there’s other populations around the world that are already using this technology and so we’re trying to get our map and our mobile app active in those regions. We don’t have an exact timeline but I’m hoping by the end of ‘25 we’ll basically have global coverage.
Juliet: [00:49:14] I’ll be really curious to see that European data because we’ve had occasion to spend quite a bit of time in Europe because Kelly grew up there, and do a lot of outdoor activities. And what we’ve noticed is how much they value spending time outside and how much they have made the outdoors accessible and fun to everybody. Just the simple fact, our kids love hiking in Germany, for example. They don’t love hiking generally. They love hiking in Germany, in the German Alps because you can be 15 miles in on a trail and there’s a restaurant where they serve you a meal on an actual dish. And it’s sort of part of the culture that it should be fun and accessible and there should be food involved and it’s social. You just contrast that with here, it’s like in many ways and in many of our outdoor environments, you need to be kind of hardcore to want to go do that. It needs to be people who-
Kelly: [00:50:04] Just thinking about the beer gardens there, people are sitting in forests, interacting and just eating chicken and having a beer and there’s no phones on the table. It’s really bananas.
Jared Hanley [00:50:16] Well, in Sweden, if you can demonstrate that you commute outside either on a bike or walking, they give you tax breaks. So they are really motivated to get people outside. And in the States, we’re just not there. I mean our healthcare system is totally different. It’s for profit. No one makes money when someone goes outside. And so we just don’t have the same incentives built here yet. But we can get there. Education first and then we can build the incentives behind it.
Kelly: [00:50:44] It makes me think about your walking school bus. Just the simple, say we have 20 minutes to walk this mile to school. There and back is 40 minutes just walking in a neighborhood. Even just the step one. If I can’t force nature, step two, I can get outside. I think that’s an important piece for people. Hey, thinking abut what’s the most dense nature environment I can find myself in, that’s always I can max that out. But if I can’t, I can at least get outside and have some sunlight on my face. We’re seeing our friends like Andrew Huberman, Jack Kruse, people are really talking about early light, late light as one of the core drivers of health.
Juliet: [00:51:28] Critical drivers, critical drivers. Yeah. And I would also make ethe point that in a lot of these European and other countries, the weather isn’t necessarily stopping people from spending time outside. I mean I think it’s this decidedly American thing where it’s winter, we’re going to go inside for nine months. But you don’t see that in other cultures. They are still doing things outside.
Jared Hanley [00:51:47] Well, I have one other idea about how we can effect a massive change rapidly. And that is appeal to the conscious of the big tech companies. I mean the reality is those tech companies are part of why we are spending so much time inside in front of screens. They’re addicting us all. I mean frankly, we are all slaves to their algorithms right now. If they become aware of some of the health damages at a societal level they are causing, they may want to put a little money into motivating people to get outside of it. Just counterbalance some of the harms that big tech is causing in terms of public health. Not only mental stress that we’re seeing from these addictive social apps but also just raw screen time. They make money as long as you’re stuck to that screen and they’re very good and getting you stuck to that screen. And they also have billions of dollars, so with a little bit of charity, maybe they can help out.
Juliet: [00:52:41] I really do love the idea of spending time outside being a circle on the Apple watch. I mean I have so many friends who are obsessed with closing the circle and if there was just one more circle that was spending time outside, those circles are a motivator, so I hope that happens.
Jared Hanley [00:52:56] Thanks. Me too. Obviously.
Kelly: [00:52:59] Well, having been a child who had the great fortune of being a latchkey kid in a Bavarian forest, what you’re saying just really, really, really resonates with me and just how fortunate I was to grow up where I was forced to ride my bike, I didn’t have a lot of choice. And the takeaway for me, the default, was to accidentally do the right thing. I didn’t have a choice. I had to walk to school or I had to ride my bike. I had to ride through these forests. And I think that’s more and more as Juliet and I keep coming around to how do I retrain the environment so it’s not one more thing I have to do. How do we shape our institutions and our schools and our work environments so that we automatically end up doing the right thing? I think that’s the lens we could best look through this.
Juliet: [00:53:47] Well, and I would just like to say it’s really cool what you’re doing. I love all the data. When Kelly first met you and told me about the work you were doing, of course we related to it immediately and are fans. For people listening to this who want to download the app and learn more about the data and research and all the things you’re doing, can you tell them where to find it and you?
Jared Hanley [00:5406] Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you. So the mobile app is called NatureDose. It’s in both app stores, the Google Play and the Apple app store. It’s free. So check it out. And then give us feedback. We’re constantly evolving the app. We’re trying to build in better features and better feedback to people using the app. And then if you want to learn more about our general research and mapping tools, go to naturequant.com. Quant short for quantification. Naturequant.com. We have a blog there with a bunch of research articles and commentary on the latest on the science. And then you can reach me, Jared Hanley, on LinkedIn if you have a novel use for our data or want to do some research or anything like that. I always love talking to people about ways we can apply this novel information to different aspects of our lives.
Juliet: [00:54:55] Great. And are you NatureQuant or NatureDose on the social medias if people want to follow and learn more there?
Jared Hanley [00:55:00] Both. But really NatureDose. That’s the public facing mobile app. We do sell a lot of data to governments and healthcare institutions to research this but that’s mostly business. So NatureDose is where you should look.
Kelly: [00:55:14] Do it. And get your kids on it. They don’t even need to know. Put it on their phones.
Juliet: [00:55:18] One hour and twenty minutes, people. One hour and twenty minutes.
Kelly: [00:55:20] Hey, thank you so much for taking this on. I feel like it’s the task of Sisyphus to remind people to be people. One man attack on the sun. More validation for me. I love it. And we really appreciate you. And I can’t wait to see how our community gets behind this because I think we understand these system are complex and tightly connected. And it seems like if just the single act of going outside forces me to talk to my neighbors and get sunlight and be in nature-
Juliet: [00:55:53] Yeah. Makes my kids’ mental health slightly better. That’s a win.
Kelly: [00:55:57] Sign me up.
Jared Hanley [00:55:57] For sure. Well, thanks again for having me. Really appreciate it.
Kelly: [00:56:06] Thank you for listening to The Ready State Podcast. If you like what you’re hearing, check out all our episodes here or at thereadystate.com. And be sure to subscribe or leave a review on iTunes to help others find our show.
Juliet: [00:56:17] Check us out and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @thereadystate.
Kelly: [00:56:22] Until next time, cheers everyone.
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